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 Les Pompiers

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mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 7:33 am

When I either want to make a new model , or ask Clive to make a model for me, the best part is the research. The next project is to make a set of pompiers, either in a vehicle or fighting a fire. Take these two pictures, both from 1910. The 'uniforms' are completely different but seem to be working clothes rather than ceremonial ( I like the rifle in the 2nd pic, just to show how versatile they can be!)

Les Pompiers Les_pompiers

Les Pompiers ParissapeursPompierslestenues2280

I prefer the look in the second picture, but what are they carrying the water in, in the first pic? It seems to be a flat board (with a handle at each corner) and a leather (?) bucket with a handpump. The way the pompiers are posing for the camera I would guess its either after the fire or an exercise.

Anybody got any ideas?

Mikey
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clive_t

clive_t

Location : Portsmouth, England

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 9:50 am

Nice pics, Mikey.

I have collected a few of my own of a similar-looking era, and interestingly enough some of those have a guy holding a rifle. It suggested to me that maybe the pompiers fulfilled some other purpose too, besides fire-fighting - maybe their history is derived from some military role?

Some of the pics i have appear to show the men wearing some sort of 'oilskin' jacket with what appears to be a fur lining round the collar.

Would it be safe to post the pics here, that i have gathered?

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the Great Unfinished Railway, formerly the S&CGR
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAttlLHn3pZsTFrQUt00rgQ
mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 10:05 am

It would be great Clive. Postcard images more than 70 years old are in public domain, and educational purposes are exempt from copyright infringement (as long as you acknowledge the owner,if known) I was looking at pictures of 1910 steam fire engines, but i cant see how that would work unless the machine was kept fired up 24/7 in case of call-outs!

mikey
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 10:21 am

Indeed les 'Pompiers' (actually 'Sapeurs-Pompiers') have an immpressive, long established and diverse history in France and are not quite the same as Fire Brigade in Great Britain.

Here are a couple of links to the modern service.

Paris Pompiers

French Pompiers

Basically if you have anything wrong with you here you call '18' the 'Pompiers' first.
Their joint primary role is an emergency/ambulance service.
They will administer first aid and take you to hospital if necessary.

Of course if you set fire to your mother in law's house by accident they will (unfortunately) come too.

Usually at the Caserne there are two groups one dealing with firefighting (contre l'incindie) and one dealing with first aid and emergency (secours, la prévention et l'urgence).

Although different towns and areas may have different arrangements and overlap with the SAMU (dial15) - specialist paramedics.

Their recruitment is a service like the military/Gendarme.


Last edited by Carl Hibbs on Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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clive_t

clive_t

Location : Portsmouth, England

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 11:59 am

OK here are the pics I have uncovered from various trawls of the net. Some may not fit the year 1910 or indeed the little market town of 'Demiel' but they are still quite interesting in their own way:

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_5

Les Pompiers Vielles_maisons_place_du_chatel_-_p

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_4

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_3

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_2

Les Pompiers Recadre_image_hauteurphp

Les Pompiers Pompiers_ponchon_sepia

Les Pompiers Pompiers

Les Pompiers M500202_atpico04pp0034_p

Les Pompiers ViervilleRuePaveePompiersL

Les Pompiers Pompiers_dAlteckendorf_1912

Les Pompiers 1909_Camiondepompier

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the Great Unfinished Railway, formerly the S&CGR
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAttlLHn3pZsTFrQUt00rgQ
mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 12:09 pm

Great pics Clive! and with reference to my last post look at all those steam pumps! I guess as those pics are of paris its justified to keep them in steam 24/7. I've seen them in other pics but what are those things over their shoulders in some of the pics? I think a horsedrawn vehicle is the way to go. On the other hand I like the 1909 engine at the end!

mikey
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Bearcastle

Bearcastle

Location : Brie

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 3:34 pm

For the Fireman, there's something important to know, the Sapeurs Pompiers de Paris are an army branch to protect Paris.


99 % of the others are now mostly managed by each department, but in this time 1910 they were most of the time section created by the town or a group of town. Most of them were voluntary, very few professionnal.

So for the equipment or clothes, there was a lot of differences, depend on the money they could find for that (but no gun as you see for Paris).

But if you talked about local fireman of every village, you need to think of them, not the Sapeurs Pompiers de Paris (called Brigade as well).
If you want something very near the local reality, find postcard of fireman from province (seine et marne include). You have to exclude as well "the marin pompiers of Marseille, as well an army branch.


Last edited by Bearcastle on Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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http://scfbrie.webs.com/
Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 3:40 pm

Definitely the learning channel this forum.....

That camion Delahaye looks right hand drive to me. Shocked

I notice the bugles too. Something the fire services/brigades still have on the continent, France and Belgium especially. In Ypres it is the responsibility of the Fire Brigade to play 'The Last Post' every day at the Menin Gate memorial.
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mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 3:53 pm

Merci beaucoup Laurent! That really is useful information. It may well be the case that Demiels wealthy benefactor (bearing in mind the fire risk from the papermill) will import the latest fire engine available (or easiest to model!!)

mikey
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mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 4:36 pm

After Clive and Laurents information I have found this picture taken on 13 november 1908 which shows the pompiers of St Etienne receiving their new Delahaye-Farcort engine 40hp at a cost of 33,840 francs (accessories included!). And yes I think it is right hand drive!

Les Pompiers Treuilpomp

mikey
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Sparkeswood

Sparkeswood

Location : Kent,England

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptySun Feb 14, 2010 7:55 pm

As an aside from this...the Kent Fire Brigade was rebranded the Kent and Medway Fire and Rescue Service.
The word 'Brigade' was considered too militaristic for todays society.
They still have the coloured watches though (i.e. red,blue watch ect) based on the navy tradition.In the 'old day's' most of the members came from here.
Most of the fire stations I visit all have a photographic history of the area on the walls.It's fascinating stuff.
It seems to be lost though on the new recruits.
The museum at Kent Fire Headquaters in Maidstone is wonderful.


Last edited by Sparkeswood on Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling and vague grammar)
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyMon Feb 15, 2010 2:24 pm

Before the invention of the steam powered fire engine, most fire departments relied heavily on volunteers as it took many men to haul water and/or power the "armstrong" pumping apparatus. Professional fire companies were enabled to a large degree by steam powered equipment. There are 19th century newspaper reports of [volunteer] fire companies opposing the introduction of steam pumpers and claiming all sorts of mayhem if they were adopted.

I never wondered before about how they got the steam up in their engines; I guess I assumed they had enough time while they were traveling to the fire. I found a link on wikimedia that indicated steam could be raised in as little as 10 minutes, at least for this fire engine. I did wonder as a kid why they needed horses to pull the engine - why couldn't the steam engine power it along? I also recall wondering why they would take fire to a fire.

Given the military type organization (companies, brigades, etc.), uniforms, and weaponry displayed in the postcards, I wonder if some of these fire companies were also formed as militias or home guard detachments. It sort of fits in with their overall safety and security responsibilities - even in todays Sapeurs Pompiers companies.

Anyway, I love the post cards. Fascinating as always.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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clive_t

clive_t

Location : Portsmouth, England

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 2:13 pm

And here's a few more:

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_9

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_25

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_24_dinan

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_23

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_22

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_21_nanterre

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_15_nanterre

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_19_Wimereux

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_18

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_17

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_16

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_14

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_13_la_courneuve

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_12

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_11

And, finally, my personal favourite by a generous measure:

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_20_femme_pompier

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the Great Unfinished Railway, formerly the S&CGR
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAttlLHn3pZsTFrQUt00rgQ
KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 2:49 pm

Clive:
The last one is great. I can't quite make out the inscription on the card- what does it say?

I like the first one as well. Wonder how a fireman earns a chest full of medals like that.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 2:57 pm

Great pictures Clive! funny how all the automobile engines appear to be right hand drive!

mikey
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 3:16 pm

The inscription reads 'Les Femmes de l'Avenir' (women of the future) and then a number and 'Pompiers' I think at the bottom.

Looks like a card series. I wonder what the other 'women of the future' are...? Very Happy
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clive_t

clive_t

Location : Portsmouth, England

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 3:18 pm

KleineDicke wrote:

The last one is great. I can't quite make out the inscription on the card- what does it say?
I think it reads either Les femmes de l'aventur (Women of adventure) or Les femmes de l'avennir (Women of the future)

They both fit, in their own way! I imagine, that back in those days this photo might have been perceived as somewhat 'racey'!

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the Great Unfinished Railway, formerly the S&CGR
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAttlLHn3pZsTFrQUt00rgQ
mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 3:22 pm

I think its a fantasy ,as at the time of that card women were blocked from becoming pompiers )indeed they were all over the world. Ah theres something about a woman in uniform. As an aside when i was a cop I had three women on my section and everymorning when i went off duty i would get a flash of suspenders! Oh happy days!!

mikey
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 5:21 pm

There are obviously more of these myhthical women.

I've found one more so far.

Les Pompiers Zouave11

A rather more 'masculin' Michel than Michelle Zouave.

As Mikey suggested these 'women of the future' could be fantasies, a sort of reverted sexist French irony or paradie perhaps.

I would never have thought a French Zouave would have or could have ever been a girlie (this one's probably not anyway... Cool).

The Zouaves were crack North African soldiers recruited from the best French infantry regiments.....

Do any of the French members know anymore?

Interesting drift hey.
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyTue Feb 16, 2010 5:30 pm

I thought it said "Women of the Avenue"- glad I asked for clarification, although that might also fit.

Zouaves existed in other armies as well; there were Zouave regiments in the armies of The Union and the Confederacy during the American Civil War. There were also Polish and Spanish Zouave units. Like the postcard, I don't believe any were women, although they certainly wore fancy pants. Very Happy

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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clive_t

clive_t

Location : Portsmouth, England

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyThu Feb 25, 2010 11:22 am

mikeyh wrote:
I think a horsedrawn vehicle is the way to go. On the other hand I like the 1909 engine at the end!
mikey

Just found a very large museum photo of this kind of machine

http://www.brusselspictures.com/wp-content/photos/Autoworld-French-cars3/Delahaye1907.JPG

Incidentally, I read somewhere else that the tyres on this vehicle were solid because the weight of it was too much for the pneumatic tyres of the day

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the Great Unfinished Railway, formerly the S&CGR
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAttlLHn3pZsTFrQUt00rgQ
mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyThu Feb 25, 2010 2:36 pm

Yes that certainly is a large one Clive! Superb picture though. Will start modelling it tomorrow!!

mikey
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clive_t

clive_t

Location : Portsmouth, England

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyWed Apr 07, 2010 9:47 am

I've been trawling the website of our friends at Delcampe for further pics of pompiers etc, and I found an interesting, short set of cards depicting the fighting of a line-side fire at St Ouen.

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_30_st_ouen

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_26_st_ouen

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_27_st_ouen

I can't imagine this last picture ever being taken in this country today! Any lineside fire would result in the line being closed - I have bitter experience of that trying to get home from London a while ago.

Also, I found some others, albeit of the pompiers in Paris - I think these are quite fascinating too, in their own way:

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_31

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_32

Not sure if this is Paris, but is quite interesting anyway for the uniform detail:

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_29

Finally, a puzzle... what is being shown off here? I don't have the answer by the way, I am just mildly curious!

Les Pompiers Ref_pic_28

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the Great Unfinished Railway, formerly the S&CGR
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAttlLHn3pZsTFrQUt00rgQ
tram47

tram47

Location : Aquitaine (France)

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyWed Apr 07, 2010 10:31 am

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mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

Les Pompiers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Les Pompiers   Les Pompiers EmptyWed Apr 07, 2010 12:15 pm

Interesting pictures Clive. At least I can now see that the 'thing' over their shoulder seems to be a fire blanket! (and not a cape)

Mikey
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