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 Anton's Live Diesel

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Carl Hibbs
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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 10:00 am

antonr91 wrote:

The problem is that it seems to be quite high revving to get and real power going. If the weather is good tomorrow, then i may pop down the club for a propper run, and i may follow suit and take out the clutch springs, so the clutch engages earlier. Im also only using a 12 tooth pinion gear, and even though i=the engine is a 1300KV, i think 15-20 teeth would be far better.

If you read what I post sometimes then you would find the answer. Cool

"The generator is a 3 phase BLDC motor. I have used 910Kv which gives (approx) 1 volt for every 910rpm. This has a 5mm dia shaft. Troy uses a bigger motor.
Don’t go for high Kv values on a small motor. Go for low Kv values on a chunky motor."

From the post about Brian's diesel.

Your BLDC motor will produce (slightly less than) 1volt for 1300rpm so to get 10volts you will need about 13,000 rpm. A 910Kv motor will produce a similar 10volts of electricity at nearly 4,000rpm less. Idea

See this link which tells you everything about Brushless DC motors. There's even a quiz!

http://www.anaheimautomation.com/manuals/forms/brushless-dc-motor-guide.php

The clutch spring was Troy's idea and discovery and makes a difference because some clutches engage at about 2,000 rpm. Without the spring it engages almost instantly allowing electricity to start being produced at lower revs. It makes for smoother slow speed running as you don't get a sudden burst of electricity.
This is irrelevant though if you have an electronic speed controller.

For your locomotive Anton.
Are the engine and electric motor securely mounted. From the pics I'm not so sure. I would hate for those to come loose from the wooden mounting block.
Strong steel bolts, washers and locknuts or locking washers are best with the bolts going all the way through to the chassis through vertical holes.

BTW, What is the 'roll cage' for?
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 5:31 pm

Anton, isn't it illegal to use 35 Mhz on a surface model. I thought that was for aircraft only though I dont know why that should be.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyTue Dec 25, 2012 6:10 pm

Anton, fyi though I know not why.

http://www.ukrcc.org/info.html
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyWed Dec 26, 2012 8:19 am

A very useful link David. There's a lot of information that I need to look at carefully too.
The frequency use and allocation is not quite the same in every country.
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyWed Dec 26, 2012 9:47 am

Carl, i have always secured everything on my locos down with screws, but i will admit in the rush to get it finished, things were put on quickly and screws in at angles. BUT i can assure you nothing such as the motor or the engine will ever get loose, nor have they ever since i have been trying this type of thing!!

The reason i used the 1300KV motor, is because it was laying around, and it meant i did not have to go and buy one, but as you said, it was very high revving to go anywhere. Here is the video from VAMES on sunday. The high revving is not actually me, but a mixture of twitchy radio gear (partly due to the fact that the aerial was dangling behind the loco) and the fact that halfway through my video the servo becomes unstuck. anyway you get an idea about what has been said about using an higher KV motor, from this video:







This is where i buy all MOST of my rc stuff like motors and shaft etc from. Its a amazing site that has equivalents for most makes, and an extremely helpful tech team. I asked what the equivalent to a Park 480 outrunner for my Funtana which was going to cost £55 and they gave me a £11 motor which has worked amazingly, lots of power and prop hangs like a dream.

http://www.giantshark.co.uk/index.php

Carl, if you wouldnt mind taking a look on here and helping me to find a suitable motor that will make lots of power at low revs, when you have some time of course.

David i actually had forgotten that as I was 13 when i was flying with a club and had forgotten that they had told me about rules regarding what and when you use certain frequencies.

Doesnt make sense in my head that they should only be for planes, as i remember when running in some of the engines on my planes, i took them down to the local field and jst taxied round for hours!! (sad i know but it keeps me going)
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyWed Dec 26, 2012 10:21 am

antonr91 wrote:
Carl, i have always secured everything on my locos down with screws, but i will admit in the rush to get it finished, things were put on quickly and screws in at angles. BUT i can assure you nothing such as the motor or the engine will ever get loose, nor have they ever since i have been trying this type of thing!!

I'm glad that you are confident and pleased your machine is working.

However from my experience things do come loose when you least imagine and despite meticulous prudence. I have the scars to show for it.
Moreover it would be grossly irresponsible of me - being around longer than you and as administrator of this forum (where you have obtained much of your advice and many ideas) not to remind you of care and safety versus haste.

antonr91 wrote:

Carl, if you wouldnt mind taking a look on here and helping me to find a suitable motor that will make lots of power at low revs, when you have some time of course.

You are quite capable of finding your own motor, don't be so lazy! Please read my previous posts regarding Kv values. I am currently using 910Kv outrunner motors (rated at about 400 watts maximum power Shocked) This is more than adequate to power 2 proprietory G scale motor bogies plus fan and lights.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyWed Dec 26, 2012 2:51 pm

Anton, whilst it maybe "doesn't make sense in your head" you should assume the frequency laws exists for a purpose even if neither of us know what that purpose is. I would respectfully suggest you ought to observe the law and if you find that unacceptable you might want to find out how the 35MhZ rules came about and why they exist.

If you do bother please let me know as I am as fascinated as you are.
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyWed Dec 26, 2012 9:49 pm

David Grantham wrote:
Anton, whilst it maybe "doesn't make sense in your head" you should assume the frequency laws exists for a purpose even if neither of us know what that purpose is. I would respectfully suggest you ought to observe the law and if you find that unacceptable you might want to find out how the 35MhZ rules came about and why they exist.

If you do bother please let me know as I am as fascinated as you are.

Since the government is likely involved in setting these rules, don't expect ther to be any logic in the rules!

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyWed Dec 26, 2012 10:04 pm

Bill, until I have the facts I remain open minded.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyThu Dec 27, 2012 7:17 am

I think one needs to abide carefully by the rules here whether we agree or not and pay attention if visiting another country.

Especially if like Anton you use radio control in public.

We certainly had some radio glitching even on 2.4 GHz at Railexpo and there were a number of people using Wifi control systems for the smaller scales.

When I have exhibited at a large general model show like Salon Maquette in Paris I was asked to provide a list of radio frequencies that I use.

Some of the smaller shows like Chatellerault didn't seem to bother when I told them I was using some rc for trains.

The consequences of bringing down a 1/4 scale aircraft for example at a public show for using an illegal frequency are serious.

Having studied the information in that link I was surprised to find these in France:

aircraft only
26.815
26.825
26.835
26.845
26.855
26.865
26.875
26.885
26.895
26.905
26.915

I have some 26 MHz crystals in this band that I will certainly change now. silent

Although I think many people seem to be moving towards 2.4 GHz anyway.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyThu Dec 27, 2012 9:43 am

I found this on Wikipedia which gives some insight:

The 27 MHz band used for CB was already allocated in the UK to radio controlled models. While this was usually little more than a frustrating nuisance for modellers, it did pose a genuine danger for aircraft models, which can kill or seriously injure. As a result of the CB craze, it became mandatory to operate aircraft models on the alternative band of 35 MHz. The legalised service left some of the 27 MHz band available for ground models, but since the illegal American equipment continued to be widely used, most modellers gave up and adopted other frequencies instead.

Full article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_radio_in_the_United_Kingdom
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyFri Dec 28, 2012 3:13 pm

David Grantham wrote:
Bill, until I have the facts I remain open minded.
Please don't misunderstand me - I wasn't advocating flouting the rules. I was merely observing there might not be a logical reason. Wink
Following Carl's last post, It seems there may be some logic after all, although I wonder if shoving all those RC aircraft over to a single frequency solves any interference problems. Further, not to doubt the accuracy of Wikipedia Rolling Eyes , but it says "it became mandatory to operate aircraft models on the alternative band of 35 MHz", but doesn't say other uses are forbidden. I always follow the rules (usually).

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyFri Dec 28, 2012 3:33 pm

KleineDicke wrote:
Further, not to doubt the accuracy of Wikipedia Rolling Eyes , but it says "it became mandatory to operate aircraft models on the alternative band of 35 MHz", but doesn't say other uses are forbidden.

http://www.ukrcc.org/35mhz.html

35 MHz = airborne use only in most of Europe. Not listed for use at all in the U.S.A.

Maybe if Anton put wings on his locomotive it might qualifly.....'Cool'
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyFri Dec 28, 2012 3:59 pm

Bill, I hope I did not sound facetious it is just that it was fairly clear that 35Mhz can only be used for aircraft and that using this on surface models is potentially dangerous. I was just trying to get Anton to think about the ramifications of ignoring this law.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyFri Dec 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Not quite as good as a live diesel but listen to those 4X4 strokes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmKdA6L_MWk
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySat Dec 29, 2012 6:33 pm

David Grantham wrote:
Bill, I hope I did not sound facetious it is just that it was fairly clear that 35Mhz can only be used for aircraft and that using this on surface models is potentially dangerous. I was just trying to get Anton to think about the ramifications of ignoring this law.
No problem. As I said, it was not my intention to encourage him to break the rules.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySat Feb 16, 2013 3:31 pm

The latest with this diesel loco as requested by David.

This is most probably going to be the final change to this loco, as ive got it running almost how i would like it and im also now trying to spend any spare time i have on the 3rd edition to my collection, which i will hopefully have up and running soon.

The only thing to change is possibly the gearing ratio as its still revving high to get forward speed.

what has been changed/moddified:

- Ive added a copper part to the exhaust
- Changed location of fuel tank, as im trying to make this loco look more impressive, and take a little more time in presentation, instead or rushing everything and taking half measures.
- Ive changed the 1100KV motor for a 910KV, bust still need to play around with the gearing ratio as its revving rather high as youl see in the vids

Just did a bit of a tidy up, but the whole thing could do with a repaint now, as over time, fuel and play time has taken its toll on the paintwork.

Here are some photos and a few videos of whats been changed

If you like it, then good cheers

If you dont, then dont bother posting please!!

[img]Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 Dscn1910[/img]

[img]Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 Dscn1911[/img]

[img]Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 Dscn1912[/img]

[img]Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 Dscn1913[/img]

[img]Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 Dscn1914[/img]

[img]Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 Dscn1915[/img]

[img]Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 Dscn1916[/img]

And some videos...enjoy



More coming, once they upload
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Admin
Admin
Admin

Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySat Feb 16, 2013 4:10 pm

antonr91 wrote:


If you like it, then good cheers

If you dont, then dont bother posting please!!


Please don't tell people 'not to bother to post' if they don't like it.

Just because someone doesn't post a 'that's nice' reply doesn't mean they don't like something and this is not Faecebook, people don't post just to get 'likes'.
If anyone has any constructive or purposeful comments to make then they have a right to reply whether that pleases you or not.

Having said that, as all the others this is an interesting project.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySat Feb 16, 2013 7:02 pm

As there are others building or wishing to build 'diesels' maybe you could to tell us about the clutch you have fitted. It's not a standard Kyosho part and has a ventilated bell.
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GWhizz

GWhizz

Location : Charente, France

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySat Feb 16, 2013 7:04 pm

Carl Hibbs wrote:
As there are others building or wishing to build 'diesels' maybe you could to tell us about the clutch you have fitted. It's not a standard Kyosho part and has a ventilated bell.

Yes please!

_________________
Brian
Brian
also blogging at
www.frenchgardenrailways.com
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Paulus

Paulus

Location : The Netherlands

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySat Feb 16, 2013 7:11 pm

Carl Hibbs wrote:

Maybe if Anton put wings on his locomotive it might qualifly.....'Cool'

I think you have given him ideas Carl... I saw him testing a propeller in his other topic just this day... lol!

_________________
Paul pirat
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptySat Feb 16, 2013 8:19 pm





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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Anton's Live Diesel   Anton's Live Diesel - Page 11 EmptyTue Mar 26, 2013 11:29 am

Right, well ive been very busy in the last few months as the commercial license ground school as extremely intense, and is completely occupying my brain at the moment.

First off all here are some of my latest videos:










Now to asnwer some of the questions...

Ive use the ventilated clutch bell for a number of reasons. Having played around with nitro cars when i was younger, i noticed that after a while of messing around and hard accelerating and stopping, the plastic clutch shoes that were fatted to alot of cars as standard, got extremely hot, and would become very ineficient at griping the clutch bell. I was completely unaware of any ventilated clutch, and or metal clutch shoes at that point. But after watching Carl play around with clutches, and hearing that he took out the springs to make the clutch engage fairly quickly at low revs, i thought ide have a look for even more ways of making the clutch idea effective for use, without it overheating. I fan first popped into my mind, but i then stumbled across the ventilated clutch bell.

Ive also used a 2 shoe aluminium clutch, as well as the ventilated clutch bell, all purchased from our dear friend 'Blacksmithproducts' off of ebay, at a very good price, and the guy is extremely helpful and sourcing parts and offering advice etc.

Now after what Carl has said, about playing around with different gears to find the optimum one, i would say that i still need to find that, as you can probably see and hear from the videos above, it still reves fairly high, but then again, i have not removed the springs from my clutch like Carl has done.


For the other guys who are currently building, or planning on building live diesel locomotives, and would strongly recommend following his footsteps, and going down the geared route, as opposed to trying out the direct solid coupling. For a number of reasons, I would say that this method suits this form of powering locomotives fair better, and is actually easier to get right. It can cater for miss alignment better, its more realistic if you want to set up a simple electronic rc system, as RPM of engine simply governs speed, instead of having to run it through a speed controller, and you then have to protect all the electric from over powering etc.

Saying that ive still gone for the direct coupling on my third loco, but all this will be explained in my other thread.

Please throw any questions at me, as im sure as one collective community on here, it will be answered in one way or another.

Kind regards

Anton

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