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 Hymek class 35 live diesel

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antonr91




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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 16, 2011 7:06 am

Thank you very much for that Carl, i will try setting that up and ill let you know if i get stuck

Does anyone know what types of locomotives are in this picture. the one on the right and the on one the left?

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As i am considering making a few bodies to fit this loco and the one on the left would be interesting to make Smile
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 16, 2011 7:27 am

The one on the left is a CL 158 and the one on the right is probably a CL 153

Interestingly I was watching some video on You Tube recently of 158s in Thailand on metre gauge. (I know...I must get out more... Rolling Eyes)

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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 16, 2011 5:42 pm

Updates on rough body outer shell...

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The ends still need to be shortened about 2.5 cm each side and then shaped into the Hymek or easier shape, as i am struggling with forming the front of each end to desired shape...
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 17, 2011 12:08 pm

Further Development of the body.... Although at the moment it almost looks more like a coach or goods wagon as opposed to a loco, I will be shaping both the front and rear ends to make it more distinctive but that is the part im struggling with the most.

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I am not one for extreme neatness or precision engineering, probably due to my age and the fact that i just like to get things done as quick as possible. It is something which i am working on but at the moment it can bee seen in some of the work i do as this body is really very basic and abit rushed.

When working on the loco, I have managed to lose one of the axle ends (i believe thats what it is called) as when i received the bogies, it was already detached from the bogies.

I dont know if its a universal size or whatever..so im a bit stuck at the moment.

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pline

pline

Location : Howrah, India

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 18, 2011 11:48 am

Hello Anton,
Nice to see that you have my PLine Power bogies fitted to your live diesel, but why do you say that the power bogies are "not quite up to English standard but I cant complain as i got them cheap"?

Afterall the bogies are all brass with 1mm thick frames, with metal 1:36 two stage reduction gearing and powered by 12v dc 150gmcm torque 7500rpm motors, plus they come with insulated metal wheel sets!!
All this at GBP110 a pair and I sold them to you less than half that price as a goodwill gesture.

I thought you would appreciate the quality

Regards
Paul Nilanjan
Paul Industrial Company
www.pline.biz


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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 18, 2011 1:04 pm

Right Paul

Im not going to have an argument with you about it but the list starts here:

They arrived Broken with two wheel axle ends lying on the floor of the box.

Im guessing they were meant to be black but they came with alot of brass showing through.

The motors are mounted very uneven and one is nearly scraping the floor when not on the track, therefore anything in the middle of the rails will catch on them.

I do appreciate the "good will gesture" even though you had assured me what i was asking for could, you could provide, then last minute saying what you want can only be achieved with the higher priced set.

Lastly the pair of unpowered wheels on both bogies actually scrape the side of the motor as the present moment.

That is why i said what i said.

Sorry if it sounded like i was criticising your work which was not my plan, but to my standard and what was pictured and what i actually got, seemed a little different.

But again I am very grateful for what you have done...
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 18, 2011 1:47 pm

But having read over it again, I see it is critical of your work so i will remove the comment...I often write or 'type' without fully thinking about what im saying. I suppose that's where years of MSN coming into play...
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 18, 2011 5:51 pm

More progress on the Hymek which has now turned into the Class 42 Warship...

Still alot more work to do but its getting there...

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More painting and finishing will happen in due course...

I need to make the roof which is curved which will be very difficult and the front windows...

then cut out all the neccisarry vents etc in the side and add wire mesh...Very Happy
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 18, 2011 7:03 pm

Those photos have also reminded me that i need another tinplate buffer as the end of that rail looks pretty tatty to say the least... Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 890686
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 18, 2011 7:14 pm

It doesn't look too bad at all.

Anton take your time with these things. Think about the body, what shape you want and how you can achieve it within your means.

If not, just build a freelance body like most of us do that is easily achievable. If it is a box shape then so be it. Just make it a good box shape.
I'm no body builder either....Wink

Practise techniques with this body to perfect the next one.

Laminate pieces together say the corners, build up thickness and shape after.

Have you got a router? You can make grooves and round off edges.

What paint are you using?...remember raw nitro fuel is great paint stripper. Most car body paints will resist nitro fuel but ordinary decorative spray paints wont.
The exhaust oil doesn't affect the paint so much.






Last edited by Carl Hibbs on Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ralphbrades



Location : Derby UK

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 18, 2011 7:41 pm

I have a cheap and cheerful method of producing a a body and a curved roof.

Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 Smotorpic8

The two end sections are made from ply and then struts placed along the length made of balsa. The curve is then "transferred" to the balsa by dragging a hack saw blade between the two ends. A thin sheet of balsa is then stuck to the struts and then when it has set a thin sheet of ABS (40 thous) is bonded to it.

I make a ply wood "chassis" for my models and then "plate" it with ABS sheet

Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 Smotorpic37

regards

ralph
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 10:04 am

Thanks Ralph...that has given me some more ideas on how to construct the curved roof...

There was a party at my house yesterday, and surprise, surprise, some of my parents best friends turned out to be engineers and electrical engineers and i had a crowed gathered around both locos, all very eager to find out whats what about them. I have been given detailed drawings of the circuitry needed to prevent my electronics from blowing up for both the locos, and we tested the voltage on 'Shunt'. At full throttle it kicks out around 65 volts Shocked. We also tested the current but ive completely forgotten what it was...

Ive been told that in order to protect my circuitry, the need a three terminal regulator with a 14-60v DC input and fixed 12v or what ever i think i need output. I will then have the speed controller attached to that and i can then control speed and forward and reverse. It also means that i can have a servo attached to the throttle and i can control the throttle with the servo without having to worry about revving to high and blowing the circuitry.

Ive taken the engine and generator off the Warship and attempted to start it on a test bench setup. It started once, then cut out and would not start again, under pull start or electric start vie the generator.

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I know from experience that nitro engines usually have a pipe that goes from the top of the fuel tank and leads into the exhaust. On this set up there hasnt been anything to attach to the exhaust. I dont know whether this is affecting starting or not, as i really cant come up with an explination for what is going on.

Does anyone know about the mixture tab, as i know there's a general rule of thumb for screwing it all the way down and then unscrewing it 2 1/2 times i think but that may be wrong?

Would love to get the whole thing started and see what that exhaust sounds like Evil or Very Mad
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 10:22 am

I'm not sure about the electrics stuff you mention. Some of it sounds ok and very precise but the problem with too many heads is a lot of different advice. If you are happy with your engineer friends recommendations then best to follow them and get them to help you see the project through.

The fuel side...
Nitro engines especially 2 strokes are simple creatures.

Fuel, compression, spark.

The fuel needs to be drawn into the carb and is usually pressured by an outlet pipe from the exhaust to the tank which must be sealed.

Make sure you can see fuel flowing with no air bubbles flowing into the carb. but be careful not to flood it by over priming.

Mixture settings are depending on engine. Kyosho GX12 usually starts at 3 turns out and then lean in as required.


Check the glop plug is working too outside of the engine.


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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 12:07 pm

Thanks Carl,

I have just swapped the exhausts over from both locos and the GX now runs perfectly. It was obviously a compression thing. How do you think i could overcome this using that custom made exhaust i have?

And another question. How did you fix the GX down, as the vibrations caused when running it keep undoing the screws underneath...

and what have you attached it to? metal or wood? and which one of the two do you think would work better for vibration?

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pline

pline

Location : Howrah, India

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 12:53 pm

Not a problem Anton.
I am sure the Axle box came off during the shipping by Airmail. We had soft soldered it, but that was not enough to take the beating postal departments gave it.

Anyway I am eagerly following the progress you are making with the live diesel. You mentioned that at full throttle you get an output of 65v, do you intend to use a servo to control the throttle of the gas engine and feed the varying voltage output from your generator to the traction motors or would you like to set the throttle at a fixed rpm and use an ESC to regulate the voltage to the traction motors.

The traction motors are rated for 0-18v dc and will give 7500rpm at 12v dc and are rated at 250mA at 12v.

Regards
Paul
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 2:22 pm

Right well this has been the problem Paul

With the output that i am getting off one of the dc motors, i cannot allow all that voltage to go to the speed controller as it will just explode. I am going to try out a voltage regulator that will take 65v and output 12 or 24 or what ever i need and then that will be fed to the ESC....

I will have a servo for the throttle as well so the locos are 2 channel but the throttle will not determine the speed. I plan to have the servo there to blip the throttle to keep the engine going and to give off burst of lovely smoke geek.

Thats the plan anyway...

I have also now added a little metal plate between the engine and the wood underneath and this seems to hold take the vibration away and acts as a heat sync as well.

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Last edited by antonr91 on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pline

pline

Location : Howrah, India

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 3:24 pm

Hello Anton,
I would suggest using a step down transformer to stepdown 65v AC to 12v AC and then you can use a bridge rectifier to convert to dc before you feed it to the ESC.
Generally you would not get a step down transformer off-the-shelf (at least not in India most of the commercial ones here have a primary for 220v AC, I am sure its the same in the UK as we follow the British standards here) that accepts 65v AC in the primary and gives off 12v AC in the secondary.
You might think of getting one specially would for you from your local transformer manufacturer, or could try it yourself. Its very basic actually works on N1/I1=N2/I2, where N stands for the number of turns of wire in the primary and secondary windings, while I is the current in the 2 windings, let me know if you want more assistance with this(I graduated in engineering about 15 years ago dont remember much!!).
How much current are you generating at full throttle?
Regards
paul
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ralphbrades



Location : Derby UK

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 3:44 pm

No.

Sorry Paul -but that is the wrong way to do it...

What Anton has to do is to rectify his AC fresh from the alternator using Schottsky Diodes into a "dustbin electrolytic capacitor and then he runs his motors in SERIES. He uses a three leg voltage regulator with the "ground" connection held high using a Zener diode. So, the output of the voltage regulator thinks that it is (say) 12 Volts relative to the ground leg -which is actually held at (say) 24V -thus giving him a +36V supply to his motors which splits down into two 18V across both motors.

This is a "classical" dodge to provide a fixed low amperage supply at no more than 5 amps. If he had to use more than that he would have to use a 2N3055 power bipolar with the base "jacked up" with a Zener.

I am a little busy at the moment -but I will draw a diagram later.

regards

ralph
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ralphbrades



Location : Derby UK

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 5:11 pm

Ok,

Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 CIRCUIT1

You set the required voltage with a couple of resistors -but as you can see the input side of the system could be set to easily accept 60 Volts with an output of 26.2Volts. The voltage of the Zener Diode is the last TWO numbers on the code -ie 24=24Volts or 16=16Volts (etc!)

The reason you don't use a transformer has to do with the fact that your input frequency is variable and iron orientated cores are designed to "resonate" at set frequencies, (here in the EU it is 50Hz). Moving higher than that results in massive losses through the core -this then becomes heat and the wiring melts. There are very specially wound variable frequency transformers -but you really don't want to know how much they cost...

I do because I blew one up earlier this year it was only rated at 50W(!)

Try to use as high a voltage as possible in your circuits as this helps with the dreaded I squared R heating factor.

If you use a voltage of 36 Volts and 1 Amp the heating factor is 1.
If you use a voltage of 24 Volts and 1.5 Amp the heating factor is 2.25.
If you use a voltage of 12 Volts and 3 Amp the heating factor is 9.
If you use a voltage of 6 Volts and 6 amps the heating factor is 36...

regards

ralph
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 5:22 pm

Quote :



..... alternator .....


What alternator? Or have I missed something? If so I'll get back to my clutches.

Anton, I thought you were using a Torpedo 850 DC motor as a generator (dynamo). I too have used 850 type motors and never in my life did I see 65 volts coming out of it and at full engine speed..... scratch
Okay I suppose there could be different types in the same casing.

The MFA 850Torpedo everywhere I can see is rated at 12v at 9,778 rpm but is a very powerful high current 10amp motor that's why it makes a good starter/dynamo. Maybe there are some strange voltage peaks that I haven't experienced.

If you look at my series of orginal videos on you tube you will see this on test with a voltmeter.

On one occassion in my old garden ( Sad ) recorded on film the throttle linkage broke and the engine raced at max rpm with motor attatched for a few minutes...It seemed like ages as I fled in panic thinking it would launch itself like a rotating mortar bomb into next door's immaculate garden ... but nothing happened, not even a fuse blown and you know how fond I am of fuses...

So at the risk of too many cooks... What exactly is the situation and what are you actually using Anton?


As for engine mounting, Kyosho GX12 has three mounting holes directly underneath, M3 thread with about 8mm into the engine casing.
I mounted mine on a 4mm triangular steel sandwich plate (takes up distance between pull start housing and crankcase) then the whole equipent is mount on a perforated 2mm steel plate all with locking washers on the engine or locknuts for other equipment.
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 6:24 pm

Right first things first..

I am using DC motors on both the locomotives, so correct me if a am wrong but nowhere along the line will it suddenly change to AC...

Secondly I am using the MFA on the Warship, but the motor that gave out that voltage was the motor that David gave me (Which is on the shunter) which gives out considerable more volts and amps, as when it is connected to the wheels directly, they race considerably and i know i would burn the motor out if i kept it running.

I have made the mistake of talking about the shunter on this post as well as the warship...

I know the MFA will be okay when attached straight to the ESC but i was refering to the high power that shunt seems to be creating....as this will just fry anything i have attached to it, so i need a way of dropping the power to around 25 volts and under 10 amps

I do believe that alternators are AC and this set up the is described above is for that....

Nitro engine> powering generator > creating current which goes into a 3 terminal regulator (which takes in the 60 or so volts and gives out 12 or 24 and turnes the rest into heat.>this then leads to the ESC which will then be attached to both the motors in the bogies.

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or i could do it this way using a variable resister or rheostat

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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 6:45 pm

Ralph, I see you are very noligable with electrics, Perhaps you could help me with this ssue i have here..

Shunt is creating 60 volts. I attached an ESC straight to it and t blew it up instantly...

I have now gone out and order this..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12V-24V-36V-10A-DC-Motor-Speed-PWM-Control-Controller-/150595913234?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item2310374612#ht_892wt_905

Which came today..

I now need a way of stepping down my voltage and current as this item is rated at 10 amps at 36 volts

The idea being that shunt will be manual control for now while the warship will be radio controlled.

I think ive got it with the warship as the MFA 850 does not create to much voltage and power but with the shunt k have to find a way of stepping it all down before it gets to the speed controller listed above.

Or as a question for everyone: would it be better to have the MFA 850 on shunt and have the higher current and voltage motor on the warship as t has two bogies, and will therefore require twice the power? Im stuck at what to do.

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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 7:46 pm

antonr91 wrote:


Or as a question for everyone: would it be better to have the MFA 850 on shunt and have the higher current and voltage motor on the warship as t has two bogies, and will therefore require twice the power? Im stuck at what to do.


Sorry, but I think in all honestly I've lost the plot with this.......

What do you want to achieve first of all? Then plan how you are going to achieve it rather than juggling about with all these bits and pieces not really knowing how best to use them.

You may have to ditch some things and buy others to achieve want you want.

To be frank Anton you are asking so many questions about so many things and repeatedly in some cases that we are going round in circles.

I/we would really love to help see this through to a success but I think you need to rationalise and focus your ideas a bit.




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ralphbrades



Location : Derby UK

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 8:06 pm

Anton -Sorry!

I assumed from the remarks that Paul said, that you were using an alternator of some kind -as an AC transformer would be totally useless with a DC dynamo...

Your eBay purchase is quite a good one as it looks as if it is designed for drills. It seems to follow the general patten of a NAND gate driving a FET, the variable resistor changing the MARK to SPACE ratio -all pretty robust stuff.

What I would suggest is that you solidly fix the throttle on the engine and work from a constant rotation to give generated voltage and amperage. Once you have determined what THAT is, then you can begin to graft on the power regulation system. You then have to produce a throttle stop to prevent the carb opening wider than that and (in theory) you should not blow up your ESC(!)

Put the highest output generator on the largest loco.

regards

ralph
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 20, 2011 10:35 pm

Right, I have done the obvious thing, (dont know why i didnt think of it before) which was to swap both the power units from Shunt and the warship. So the Force 15 engine with the High voltage motor is now in the warship and the Kyosho GX 12 with the MFA 850 is now in shunt. (where it originally was when i started the whole live diesel project). I can now safely attach my ebay product in the shunter without much further problems and this should in theory, run fine now. So i can forget about the shunter for now and focus on the warship.

So to conclude, all the problems are now with the warship and reducing that huge voltage down to an acceptable rate.

First question: As both of the motors on the warship are rated at 12 volts, Does this mean i really need 24 volts to power them both efficiently and with a heavy load?

Second question: I will be using an RCLine speed controller. Would this be able to withstand 24 volts?

I am struggling to find any 3 terminal regulators that can withstand a 65 volt input and give out 24 volts scratch Could anyone help with this?

The regulators look like this:
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And my previous diagram shows how i was advised to set it up. Is this a easy and straight forward way of achieving the -voltage that i need or is there other easier ways?
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ralphbrades



Location : Derby UK

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PostSubject: Re: Hymek class 35 live diesel   Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 21, 2011 7:13 am

Ok Anton.

Let us take a look at this diagram.

Hymek class 35 live diesel - Page 2 CIRCUIT2

The output from your dynamo feeds into the electrolytic capacitor and then into the Feed leg of the Voltage Regulator. The Ground leg of the VR is held at a higher potential ( 24V) to "true" Ground by using a Zener diode. The Feed leg to Ground leg voltage is still within its limits -but the voltage of the Output leg to "true" ground is what we are looking for.

Sounds confusing doesn't it!

The diagram you have been given is a good one and as simple as can be. I do know of some VR that take 60V input such as L200CV which you can rig to give any voltage from 1.2V to 36V @ 2A but they are a little pricey at around £4 each!()

Yes, ideally you should use as high a voltage as possible, (see above), to power your motors.

Sorry I cannot help you with your ESC -I don't know the manufacturer...

regards

ralph

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