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 I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge

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dtsteam




I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon May 21, 2012 9:42 pm

He's taken aback that an englishman is having trouble with a lawn mower.

Clearly Tram47 has never owned a Suffolk Colt, and discovered how temperamental they can be. I seem to remember that theres either a choke or a priming thingy - what I do remember is that they will flood if they don't start almost straightaway, so don't spend too long at once trying to start it.
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyWed May 23, 2012 9:24 am

...hey French lawnmowers are just the same my 'villaine tondeuse' was bought at Leclerc last year and is impossible to start. Although I suspect it was actually made in the PRC... Shocked

That is a very big hefty motor Anton for that chassis. Wouldn't something 25-30 cc from a strimmer or hedgetrimmer be easier to deal with...and start. I have one spare but I'm not going to post it to you....collection only I'm afraid.

But like most engines, fuel in the right mixture, compression and a clean spark is usually all that is required. Double check everything.
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyFri May 25, 2012 4:23 pm

My guess is the problems with starting the mower engine could be from two causes. First, small engines such as are on mowers, as notoriously high polluting and recently government agencies have applied standards to reduce emissions. Typically, these have resulted in higher than optimal (for smooth operation) air to fuel ratio, especially for starting and idling the engine. Secondly, when a motor sits unused for several months (as through the winter) with gasoline in the carb, the gasoline forms varnishes and other bad actors which muck up the carburetor. Even when you drain the fuel from the carb, it can still be a problem starting one that's set up for a while. I could also insert a few jokes here about British carbutetors, but that's too easy.

BTW, the Chinese mower engines are generally knock off OHV Hondas (over here we call them Chondas) and typically start very easily as long as you remember to open the fuel cock, set the choke, and switch on the ignition. I always forget to switch on the ignition and then the engine floods.

I agree a smaller engine might be more appropriate.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Spule 4



Location : Tennessee, USA

I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon May 28, 2012 2:33 am

True on the emissions change Bill, but the motor here is about 40-50 years old.

Try a shot of starting fluid/ether. If it does not fire that way, you have either an ignition or compression problem. If it does run, then it is a fuel issue.

Often on a lot of older small engines either varnish up (effectively plugged) or the float sticks.

My daily mower (a 1977 OMC built Lawn Boy D-series motor) had a strange float issue that was causing it not to start. Basically the float was a cork ring crimped in a bit of brass that actuated the needle valve. Over 30 years of service the cork broke down and the float was loose, so the valve would not open allowing fuel to get into the bowl. It took several days to diagnose this as visually one could not see this occurr.

A suggestion is to see if there is a UK small engine forum, we have several here in the US. There are a lot of small engine collectors in the US, it is quite a hobby here, maybe the same in the UK? There may be some more help there too.

_________________
Garrett
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon May 28, 2012 7:52 am

Paulus, thank you very much for that link, ive actually signed up to that, in the hope that someone can help me with this engine.

Now i would agree, at a first glance this engine seems very large for what i am trying to do, but i have spent some time researching all the different engines that can be used, adn it seems that many, many people have used this exact suffolk punch 75cc four stroke engine. I am talking to a few people on youtube who have built both types of locomotive, petrol electric and petrol mechanical and this engine works a treat.

Now i have also seen videos and spoken to someoen who has made a petro/electric locomotive with a strimmer engine, and to be honest it was screaming round the track, as it had to use full revs to turn over the generator. This is why i am using a foru stroke, as i can use a 24v 400/600 watt generator motor which will power a 36v traction motor, and therefore even at low revs this engine will be creating some power.

Here is the video of the strimmer engined loco -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgB9qsEqpEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KqItUCCiEU&feature=fvwrel

And here are two of the 4 stroke suffolk engines locos -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iekNyl2Apng&feature=relmfu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M29kENtOSCE


So to conclude, i do intend to use this engine, its just how i get it started, as in the end, it will all have a body over the whole loco and im intending for it to look a little bit like SHUNT.


Spule 4 - It has a intermittent spark/week spark i think, but i dont really know. Ill admit to everyone i know very little about 4 stroke engines, as ive only ever used 2 strokes my whole life.

Now i did take the float out, as there was lots of gunk underneath it and i gave certain bits of the carb a very basic clean, but should the float be wet (with fuel) or dry, as mines seems to be very dry, even when fuel is pumped through it.

I have joined the old lawm mower forum just to see if anyone can help with this situation, and ive had a few replies.

Thanks again for all the input from everyone and i really hope i can get this engine going, so any more help would be very much appreciated tongue
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Spule 4



Location : Tennessee, USA

I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon May 28, 2012 2:09 pm

If it is a weak spark, and it is pre-electronic ignition, I would invest in a set of points/condenser.

_________________
Garrett
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon May 28, 2012 2:24 pm

Sorry to sound like a complete idiot, but how could i tell if the engine is pre electronic ignition?

I do believe it already has points, as i have tried to clean them up with sand paper
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Spule 4



Location : Tennessee, USA

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon May 28, 2012 2:34 pm

No such thing as a dumb question! If the motor has points, then it is not electronic. I have run into some points that do not like sanding, may be just easier and cheaper to replace them.

Do a google search for the terms (not exact) "Atco gas engine forum" turns up a few gas engine forums and an old mower forum in the UK, both may be of some help!

_________________
Garrett
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyTue May 29, 2012 3:06 pm

Spule 4 wrote:
True on the emissions change Bill, but the motor here is about 40-50 years old.

My emissions comment was directed towards the problems Carl mentioned with his new mower. The carburetor varnish applies to any age motor. One quick test I have done to determine if I have a fuel delivery problem is to spray a bit of carb cleaner down the carb throat and if it fires, then I know my spark is OK, but I'm not getting fuel. Kind of like starter fluid, but less stressful on the engine (some don't react well to ether based starting fluids).

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyTue May 29, 2012 3:10 pm

antonr91 wrote:
Sorry to sound like a complete idiot, but how could i tell if the engine is pre electronic ignition?

I do believe it already has points, as i have tried to clean them up with sand paper

If the engine is indeed 40-50 years ols, it will not have an electronic ignition. A quick way of determining presence of an electronic ignition is to look for a sensor adjacent to the flywheel and a "pad" of steel on the flywheel itself, which is what the sensor senses.

If you do have points, they could also be out of adjustment (dwell angle), which will affect the spark timing.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyTue May 29, 2012 6:02 pm

Ive joined a lawn mower forum to see if anyone can be of assistance, thanks for your input Smile

Bill - thanks for that, to be completely honest, it seems to have lost all sign of a spark now. I did fiddle with the points and im not sure if i changed the distance between them accidentally. Could this change/stop the spark if the gap gets to big or to small bewteen the points?
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Spule 4



Location : Tennessee, USA

I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyTue May 29, 2012 9:43 pm

Yes, there is a set gap for the points. Ask on the mower forum, or try and get a manual to help.

_________________
Garrett
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 6:11 pm

The Latest:





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GWhizz

GWhizz

Location : Charente, France

I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 6:33 pm

I'm no fan of Live Diesel and Combustion engined things but this is fascinating. I can't wait to see it running. Continue the madness please and let us see the results! One day we might see ATCO meets CORPET!

_________________
Brian
Brian
also blogging at
www.frenchgardenrailways.com
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Paulus

Paulus

Location : The Netherlands

I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 9:26 pm

Good to see and hear the new engine is running nicely!

_________________
Paul pirat
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 7:51 am

Thank you Brian. I shall keep making new videos of the build process until locomotive is complete. Glad to hear that this type of thing is more to your liking Smile

Thank you Paul, it was moist probably one the best buys ever, so im very happy with it.


Now the next chapter to this build. The Generator motor and traction motor:

Now this is the part where i am struggling, so if anybody knows anything here, please please help me...

Right, well ive been told that in electric locomotives, around 750 watt is nearly equal to 1 horse power. My Suffolk is 1HP. Now i want this locomotive to be able to pull a fair emount...not just one carriage. So thats why i was saying perhaps a 24v 500, 600, or even 800 watt generator motor.

The problem, i dont know what effect the high wattage does? and how it will effect my traction motor?

If i use a 36v traction motor, what wattage should i use accordingly? should it be 36v and the same wattage as what i use in the generator? or higher then the geni or lower? whats the relation? scratch
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 7:53 am

And just another few videos of the engine running, as i am so happy that ive finally got it working. This time its bolted on where i plan to have it.



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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 10:45 pm

Watts are watts, regardless of the voltage. Watts measure the power while volts measure the driving force behind the power. Generally higher voltages are used to overcome resistances - such as stuff getting dirty, but watts is the measure of power.

Your generator's output will be limited either by its maximum rating or by the motor's output. That is, with a 1hp engine, 760 watts is the most you can generate. However, the actual watts will be less, due to efficiency losses of the generator and other components. Your electric motor(s) will also introduce losses, so there will be a further reduction in power to the rails. For best performance and longevity, the voltage of your generator and motor should match. The electric motor will likely have a HP rating on it - which I would match to the engine/generator combination. Likely 3/4 to 1 HP.

Have you decided upon AC or DC? I think DC is easier to control but things get a bit cloudy when I start to think about the differences between AC and DC motors.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 11, 2012 7:43 am

Right, thanks for the Bill, very helpful Smile

What i get from what you have just said is really, the higher the wattage, the better, as what ever watt i get, it will always be a bit less then stated.

You say having the same voltage generator and traction motor? I was planning on using a 24v generator and 35v traction motor, the reason being: the generator could never overload the traction motor and burn it out, as it is rated at a different voltage...?

Ive found a 24v 500/600/6500 watt motors that i could use as a generators, and a have found a 36v 600 watt motor for a traction motor. I was chocked to see how much these motors are, as im looking at around £55 each.

Yes the whole project is DC as thats what my smaller models where and i find it easier to handle.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Scooter-36-volt-600-watt-MOTOR-Electricscooter-/170858064612?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D170840242581%252B170840242581%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9054457593764165887#ht_3412wt_1396

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Scooter-24-volt-500-watt-MOTOR-Electricscooter-/170858064803?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D190677450500%252B190677450500%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9054468013890661048#ht_3407wt_1396

Please let me know what you think about the motors stated above.

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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 14, 2012 2:33 pm

Using a motor with a higher voltage rating than the generator is OK; it will give you an additional margin of protection.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 14, 2012 2:47 pm

Yes, thats what i was told before, which is why i decided to do this. Im pretty much set on now finding a 24v 650 watt generator motor and a 36v 600 watt traction motor. Ive found the traction motor, but the generator motor is difficult to find.

Unlike the little diesel model, i havnt planned on using any electrics in bewteeen the to motors, i planned on literally linking generator to traction motor, as the centrifugal clutch on the engine wont turn until it gets to a certain revs anyway. Obviously a start, stop or forward/off/reverse switch would be helpfull, especially for starting the thing.

Once i have the generator motor, which will be very soon i hope, i will then need to start working on the bracket, that will hold it in place. Now i i do have an old roadworks road sign in the shed from years ago, and its thin metal, but very easy to cut and bend, so i may try with that, but i know the generator motor will be extremely heavy for its size, and therefore im not to sure whether it will hold.
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 14, 2012 2:54 pm

This is the model number i have just found for a potential generator motor...

MT-24650-001S
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 18, 2012 5:35 pm

Right, i am now in desperate need of this motor, and im not sure on what to do about getting it...

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24-volt-650-watt-motor-currie.html

Its 24v and 650 watt and is perfect for what i need. the only problem is that it is in america, and i cannot seem to find it over here. Im not sure if anyone is good with finding things, or knows of any where else i could find something like this? as its a £65 motor but postage to england costs £80 No
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Paulus

Paulus

Location : The Netherlands

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 18, 2012 9:13 pm


_________________
Paul pirat
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antonr91

antonr91

Location : south-east England

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 18, 2012 9:28 pm

Paul, thanks for finding that. I have actually already emailed that guy whose motor that is as he runs a massive ebay shop, and ive asked about any higher wattage motors. He does do a 36v 600 watt motor which i am going to buy from him, but 500 watt is the highest for the 24v range. Sad

Thank you very much for looking for me though Paul, much appreciated. Let me know if you find anything else that you think may be of interest in helping me with the build Very Happy

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Paulus

Paulus

Location : The Netherlands

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PostSubject: Re: I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge   I want to build a Live Diesel for 3.5 or 5 inch gauge - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 18, 2012 9:43 pm

I just noticed you found that same Ebay add... Embarassed

But I did find something else. It's an UK based online shop called Eclipsebikes. They sell 'Motor kits' that contain a 24 volt 650 motor. However the sets are expensive. They have a category for motors only that is to be updated and does not show any items.
But perhaps you can email them if they sell the 24 volt / 650 watt motors loose from the kit.

Here's an example of the kit with 24 volt / 650 watt:
http://eclipsebikes.com/chainwheel-watt-ebike-p-972.html

And the empty motor catagory: http://eclipsebikes.com/parts-accessories-motors-c-59_1.html


_________________
Paul pirat
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