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 Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz

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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyThu Jul 21, 2011 9:32 pm

Whilst waiting for parts to arive for LDP2 (Live Diesel Project 2) It was time to start 'Number three' using a power unit based upon LDP2 - .12 cu nitro engine geared to a brushless motor as a generator.

As mentioned on that thread there is a plan to build a live diesel based on a true prototype.

Brisoneau et Lotz built a number of successful metre gauge machines, locotracteurs, autmotrices and autorails for France and overseas.

They built 2 'Var' type ZT51/ZT52 for the Chemin de Fer Provence in 1938. These were in service on the line between Toulon and St Raphaël. After the line closed they were sold to Spain where they served until the early 80's and were both subsequently scrapped. Crying or Very sad

For more detailed information on the prototype in French see:
Brissoneau

It is a very low but wide vehicle, rather more like an autorail than locotracteur.


The model......:

It will be 'semi-scale' as I need to exercise some licence. I haven't really got the time to detail everything especially the bogie frames which are almost hidden. And of course it has to house a proper throbbing engine!

Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  Bldies10

Fed up with the rising prices of brass and now birch ply, so for the bodywork I have resorted to using 3mm MDF as a base material which is of resonable quality, cheap and easy to work with.

The chassis (using 2 USA trains motor bogies) and power unit are more or less taken care of so it is body building time:

For gluing MDF I use cheap super glue. It soaks into the fibres and bonds very quickly and strong.

Cutting was by knife and razor saw but even 3mm is pretty arduous.

The window surrounds are .020" plasticard.

Roof is 15mm quadrant sandwiched around a piece of 9mm MDF and profiled to shape.

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Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  Three111

The roof cupola is made from anodised aluminium, just a scrap piece I had.
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyThu Jul 21, 2011 9:57 pm

Looks good Carl. Will it be ready by October? Are you taking orders?

BTW, what is MDF?

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyThu Jul 21, 2011 10:08 pm

It should indeed by ready by October...maybe August even. Laughing

MDF = Medium Density Fibreboard.
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mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyFri Jul 22, 2011 6:33 am

This one looks good Carl. Excellent progress pictures as well!!

mikey
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyWed Jul 27, 2011 5:44 am

A little more progress.

Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  Three112

Getting the smooth roof profile as correct as possible is a little tricky and without making the corners pointed. A lot of painting and sanding between coats

The body sides are not going to have louvres as on the prototype but simple grills as I need maximum ventilation for the engine here.

But the cupola can have some semblance of louvred panels but again these need to be open.
There won"t be too much heat and I can use plastic.

I am nearly following a (rather laborious) method here:

Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  Three113

Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  Three114

I have not seen anywhere that has produced decent (working) louvres in metal and I can't devise a simple method at the moment. If anyone has a good idea?
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyWed Jul 27, 2011 3:22 pm

Carl, Worsley Works will sell you individual parts, like louvres, upon request.

I have just bought 6 door panels each with 6 louvre sets from WW for the FR Funkey for £20.

I figured with the limited time I have available it was worth it. I goes without saying that the quality was excellent, equally the service. The great thing about etched brass small parts is that you can stick it on a block of wood and it transforms.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyWed Jul 27, 2011 3:26 pm

Of course if we could find another he would produce an etch for the whole body based on a minimum sale of 3, or even commission just a set of louvres for the B&L. There must by quite a demand for a generic louvre.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyWed Jul 27, 2011 9:07 pm

I hadn't thought of Worsley Works.
Have you a picture of these louvred panels? I looked on their website and the louvred panels on the Funkey look remarquably good. But I'm not sure how can they achieve the punched out rounded profile of louvres just by etching.

No diesel is dressed without some louvres somewhere.

Here's my plastic solution on the cupola, cost = 0€ but oh the time and tedium = Sleep .....

Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  Three115
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyWed Jul 27, 2011 9:25 pm

Looks louvrely to me. lol!

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyThu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 pm

Brilliant louvres.

True you cant get real louvres from an etched sheet but I did nt want to make 360 louvres from scratch.

Anyway yours are so good they are better than etched and of course you are modelling a prototype.

Incidentally, I thought "louvres" would have to be a word with a French derivation but it appears to be from the US as "louvers" ?
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyThu Jul 28, 2011 7:44 pm

David Grantham wrote:


..... I didn't want to make 360 louvres from scratch......


pale No

My 24 took 3 days off and on.

They're way from perfect and if you look closely they're really quite primitive but in 'garden scale' they will do...


David Grantham wrote:


Incidentally, I thought "louvres" would have to be a word with a French derivation but it appears to be from the US as "louvers" ?

You've got me on this one. I know in brico places you can buy porte louvre but I'm not sure that what we are talking about for ventilation are called louvres in French. Maybe someone like Laurent would know.... study
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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyThu Jul 28, 2011 9:58 pm

David Grantham wrote:
Brilliant louvres.
Incidentally, I thought "louvres" would have to be a word with a French derivation but it appears to be from the US as "louvers" ?

Isn't Louvre a museum in Paris? lol!

Actually, Louvre or Louver are derived from L'ouvert

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyFri Jul 29, 2011 5:40 am

...And actually the French don't seem to call them 'louvres' at all...so I found out.... Rolling Eyes

They are called 'Persienne'

For example

Languages can be very odd. Wink
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philkelly

philkelly

Location : Vienne, France and Islington. London

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyFri Jul 29, 2011 7:25 am

Carl Hibbs wrote:


They are called 'Persienne'


Perhaps because this design originated on window shutters common in the Middle East to allow air to circulate while keeping out sunlight?
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Paulus

Paulus

Location : The Netherlands

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyFri Jul 29, 2011 7:44 am

Carl, it's looking GREAT!!! Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  972523

3 mm MDF is very hard to cut indeed... I assume using styrene for the bodywork is not an option because of the heat of the engine?
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyFri Jul 29, 2011 8:20 am

Carl, any advice on cutting 3mm MDF would be appreciated and could save me money on ply
and internal strengthening.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyFri Jul 29, 2011 12:26 pm

The way I cut 3mm MDF is with a sharp knife by continually scoring. It doesn't take too much effort but don't try and go too deep with each cut. Just score enough without dragging or digging the blade.

You get a very clean and square cut.

I clamp the piece to the worktable and I use a ruler (straight edge) with a finger guard on it. you can get from DIY shops for decorating/paper hanging. I use robust knives with the standard snap off blades, one large and one small.

Curves are ok too providing you have a metal template to score round.

For windows and doors it is difficult to score repeatedly into the corners so I score out the shape as much as possible and then score more heavily towards the middle part of each line until I am through to the other side then I use a very fine razor saw in an Exacto type craft handle to saw into each corner.

It is a bit tedious and be really careful of your fingertips but it is exceptionally cheap material.

Other plus are that it is smooth and has no grain as such. I also find it doesn't warp as much as ply.

You will need to seal it though both sides. I use any old spirit based paint heavily diluted and it just soaks in.

For this latest creature/creation there is bracing on the corners of 8mm square. The roof (now glued in place) keeps the shape and rigidity.

I also use superglue and not usually wood glue for mdf unless you can get that thin runny stuff marked as Bostik pro or something in very small bottles.

The thick PVA type glue tends to sit on the surface where as superglue really soaks in.

If you have a bench router and want to get really 'pro' you route out window recesses even.

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KleineDicke

KleineDicke

Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyFri Jul 29, 2011 2:19 pm

philkelly wrote:
Carl Hibbs wrote:


They are called 'Persienne'


Perhaps because this design originated on window shutters common in the Middle East to allow air to circulate while keeping out sunlight?

And then there's Venetian Blinds and Persian Blinds- which are related, each being a louvered window covering. The difference is persian blinds are made of wood, whereas venetian blinds are metal or plastic. Personally, I never heard the term persian blinds before - I just looked up venetian blinds on Wikipedia and the article referred to persian blinds as well. Persienne seems to be a more general term for louvers in French.

I assume venetian blinds somehow relate to Venice, but who knows. After all, I never saw anybody eating Brussels Sprouts in Brussels and the French in French Fries doesn't refer to France. Very Happy

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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mikeyh

mikeyh

Location : Dordogne France

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptySat Jul 30, 2011 10:10 am

Another good glue for MDF (and a bit cheaper than superglue) is the two part epoxy resin such as araldite but diluted with acetone (nail varnish remover). this really soaks into the fibres and is totally waterproof;

mikey
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptySat Jul 30, 2011 12:21 pm

mikeyh wrote:
Another good glue for MDF (and a bit cheaper than superglue) is the two part epoxy resin such as araldite but diluted with acetone (nail varnish remover). this really soaks into the fibres and is totally waterproof;

mikey

Thanks, good tip. That's something new to me. I will try it.

Superglue prices are getting silly unless you buy multipacks of the non-branded stuff without the fancy self clean nozzles!
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyMon Aug 01, 2011 6:39 am

More progress in sunkissed Normandy..... Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  501374

I had to rebuild the chassis as the motor bogies were larger than I anticipated and the engine (Thunder Tiger .12) is taller.

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It is now a well arrangement made from aluminium thanks to some generous offcuts from a recent veranda.

Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  Three117

USA Trains motor bogie, no traction tires, skates removed and a simple pivot plate made from double sided PCB and a 4mm brass bolt and using the existing fixings.

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Out on test. It runs at a slow scale speed using 3.6 volts and draws less than 1 amp.

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Back to the body and it was decided to make the cupola removable to enable access to the engine without taking off the whole body.

Last coat of primer I think, the roof is now smooth enough.

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Paulus

Paulus

Location : The Netherlands

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyMon Aug 01, 2011 9:04 am

Great progress! Are you bringing this one to RailExpo? I would love to see it in real!

_________________
Paul pirat
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyMon Aug 01, 2011 9:59 am

I certainly hope that's why I'm cracking on with it now while I have a couple of weeks half-free.

I've still got the other (red) one to finish off.

So the appearance of 4 diesels (including David's) at RailExpo is a distinct possibility.
More if Anton were to come... Question

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dufrok



Location : Ireland

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyMon Aug 01, 2011 5:31 pm

Very impressive Carl, lovely profile to the roof.

Recently got my hands on a Sirio 09 engine, If I connected it to a DC motor, would it be

possible to start the engine from the motor and then switch over to generator?
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Carl Hibbs
Admin
Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz    Locotracteur Brissoneau et Lotz  EmptyMon Aug 01, 2011 8:02 pm

dufrok wrote:

Recently got my hands on a Sirio 09 engine, If I connected it to a DC motor, would it be

possible to start the engine from the motor and then switch over to generator?

YES...indeed...but.....

Have a look at various threads in the live diesel section.

BTW what is/size a Sirio 09? Is that .09 cubic inches?
I have not heard of this make.

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