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Continental Garden Trains

For the average enthusiast of trains in garden scale.
 
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptySat Jan 11, 2014 9:56 am

hello everybody!

I just discovered this forum and got registered; I therefore would like to introduce myself. But before one question: why "Continental"? Is this forum initiated by english speaking people living on the continent?

I think the idea of building a gas powered lok stroke me about 60 years ago! At that time it was clearly an utopia. It revived from time to time and around fifteeen years ago, I even bought an LGB Playmobil little model with the intention of turning it into diesel. It soon appeared to be much too small; furthermore, modelshop people I enquired from clearly let me think that I was somekind of a fool and it would never work. Beeing a bit stuborned, I recently looked on internet and finally fell on this superb site and realised that the concept was not only feasable but had been many times achieved successfully.

As the most interesting part (at least for me, as I am not a modelist) is the power generator and transmission, I think I will, in a first step, focus on it. If successfull, I shall always find a "housing" for it.

My first intention was to use a brushless outrunner motor with a Kv around 300 or 400 as a generator.
For the glow engine, about all the wonderful models shown on this site, my only concern is the noise generally quite unrealistic; I would therefore be rather attracted by a four stroke engine, but I see they have been seldom used. Is there any reason not to use them? As they are fairly expensive, I would not like to make a mistake from the beginning!

Anyway, thank you every body for all the nice descriptions you did in this place, that will be a great help for me.

I apologize for the mistakes I surely did in this beautiful langage I love but do not master as I would.
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptySat Jan 11, 2014 9:15 pm

Hello Saint-Oblas,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your generous introduction. Your command of English doesn't need any apology and you make no more mistakes than the average English person!

The forum is called 'Continental' because most people on here have some connection with Continental Europe. Maybe they live and work here, visit or just like the countries. It's not an obligation though and anyone is free to join whatever their interest.

For the 'live diesel' there is a dedicated page:
http://www.cgtrains.com/h4-live-diesel
Which I haven't update for a while.

All the answers to your questions may be found there or in the pages of the various personal projects.

We look forward to seeing your project develop. Very Happy
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptySun Jan 12, 2014 12:49 pm

Welcome to this forum Saint-Oblas.
I am sure you will find the same tremendous help and support from Carl and members as I have. Whilst I have not yet been successful in building a working 4 stroke locomotive I have not yet given up and have been recently encouraged by the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iqFFC4CSks

If you read the Live Diesel section you will find publication details of the construction of the above loco.
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptySun Jan 12, 2014 1:34 pm

You might also be inpired by this.



A young man's determination and persistance.

For about the last 2 years he has been hanging around my layout at a number of exhibitions transfixed by the diesels. I eventually invited him and his father to my house over the Christmas school holidays and they went away with a motor and generator. Simple 2 stroke fun.
king 
Notice there's no clutch, just a short bar drilled out to 5mm and a force fit on both shafts.
The generator isn't bolted down either but just prevented from rotating with the shaft.
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Bearcastle

Bearcastle

Location : Brie

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptySun Jan 12, 2014 6:59 pm

Looks very promissing.  cheers
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http://scfbrie.webs.com/
Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 7:29 am

David, I has seen this video. What a fantastic achievement! I am far less ambitious because though dreaming I am somewhat realistic: I would not be able to build the magnificent loco cell and bogies.
I notice that he has taken an OS30 4T engine: this is the one I favoured, but I recently bought a second hand OS70 surpass for a good price (I have not received it yet). My only concern is the size which may be a little too big (height), but for a trial it should work, waiting a good opportunity for a smaller version.
I also notice "la Thermite" generator mounting (an appreciated the joke). I plan also a direct drive, but I am not fixed on the mounting yet: it will depend of the motor. I checked the OS brushless motors: ther is a 375kv which is very temptating, but somewhat too big (both engine will better suit a II model than a G scale!) and maybe expensive. I rather plan to buy a Robbe 3035 45 300kv. But the Robbe site does not give enough details to draw a mounting sketch.

Thank all of you for your welcome messages.
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyTue Jan 14, 2014 7:05 am

Carl,

I saw that you earlier mentionned RCtimer for motor purchasing. Did'nt you have any trouble with their shipping to France?

I am rather interseted in this model:
http://www.rctimer.com/product_575.html
with a little chance, due to its small thickness, if I can take off the axle, it could be directly positionned on the OS engine axle, this later going all the way through the motor, through the stator bal-bearings. The stator would be fixed to the same chassis as the OS engine with flexible mounts.
My only concern are:
- a rather large diameter, the group OS-Brushless being quite tall
- the possibility to take off the axle
- the fact that the non-threaded part of the OS axle is not long enough; the second bearing would be on the threaded part.
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyTue Jan 14, 2014 7:36 pm

No problem with RC timer to France. Just the usual shipping delay from the far east.
In fact I find them pleasant and polite people to do business with.
By e mail and one phone call.

I already have the motor you are thinking of. It has a low KV value but is very thin.

I had a couple of long 5mm diameter crankshaft spigots (ergot in French) made up by an engineer friend.

These are a direct replacement for the short Kyosho ones and will as you noted replace the BLDC motor shaft which can be removed (circlip and grub screw). Thus providing a direct mounting on the crankshaft like some old motorcycle alternators.
I don't think there's any need to mount the BLDC to the chassis but just to stop it turning against the shaft.      
Newbe on this forum Brushl10

This is the next stage in simplyfying the motor/gen set up. I just need the time to put it together!
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 6:41 am

Thank you for your answer. As we say in France: "Les grands esprits dse rencontrent"! Quoique venant d'écrire cela, je trouve que ce soit un peu prétentieux; il doit y avoir mieux en anglais.

The first bpossibility I thought of, was a Robbe Roxxy  3530 45 300kv engine which is very compact (35mm diameter and 30mm long), with either an industrial coupling (difficult to buy) or a custom made coupling (difficult to have it made).
Then I saw this motor on RCtimer. The price is attractive and I had the idea of have it fixed directly on the crankshaft.

I do not exactly understand what you plan to do. The parts on right side of the picture have no spigots;  were the spigots Kyosho type an other alternative? I rather see one those a threded part, that would be bolted on th threaded part of the crankshaft. By the way, when you say that the BLDC axle can be remove easily, do you speak of the thin engine in the left bottom corner of the picture? This is the one I am interested in.

As for me I do not have a Kyosho engine but have bought a second hand OS FS70 surpass 4T. I sure must wait to receive it before doing precise plans.
- The solution I would prefer would be to remove the original washer, re-engineer the rotor part of the BLDC in order to replace it, and put the stator on the shaft in front. Very nice on the paper, but difficult to achieve for a non-mechanic.
- An other solution, would be to bolt the driving washer to the stator (or preferably a spare part if I can find one).
- A third solution that would be nice would be to have a piece built to replace the original washer and having a fan for colling both engine and BLDC. But this too would be difficult to make.

I wait to receive my OS engine and keep in touch with you soon after.

Thanks
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 8:31 am

This one could be good but they are quite a bit miser on specs!

http://www.rctimer.com/product_1075.html

Cheers,
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 2:13 pm

Saint-Oblas wrote:
Thank you for your answer. As we say in France: "Les grands esprits dse rencontrent"! Quoique venant d'écrire cela, je trouve que ce soit un peu prétentieux; il doit y avoir mieux en anglais.
Great minds think alike


Saint-Oblas wrote:

I do not exactly understand what you plan to do. The parts on right side of the picture have no spigots;  were the spigots Kyosho type an other alternative? I rather see one those a threded part, that would be bolted on th threaded part of the crankshaft. By the way, when you say that the BLDC axle can be remove easily, do you speak of the thin engine in the left bottom corner of the picture? This is the one I am interested in.

The 3 parts on the right are (what I call) spigots. They are M5 threaded to screw on to the Kyosho crankshaft. The original Kyosho spigot is the small black one which normally takes a clutch assembly but is too short to use as a rotor shaft for all the BLDC motors I have seen so far. So that is why I have 2 longer ones made. The longest one is for the orange 1100 KV outrunner and the slighty shorter is for the lower flat motor.
These spigots will replace the 5mm dia rotor shafts in the BLDC motors.
To take out the shaft you must remove the circlip on the stator backplate. This will separate the stator with the coils and the rotor with the permanent magnets and shaft. To remove the shaft from the rotor casing there are 1 or 2 grub screws depending on motor type. The shaft is also a very tight fit and will need to be tapped out.

The new spigots will need a small groove turned on them at the correct place for the circlip to refit. I can just about manage that.  

Not all BLDC motors are capable of being dismantled. I bought 2 'cheapies' from Hobbyking that are fixed for life!
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 2:21 pm

Thank you for these precisions. When I read spigots, I thought of a cylindrical plate without spigots on a diameter (as seen on this site in a topic). Since I wrote my last intervention I tried to undertand what they call "gimbal" and understood that the specific motor they use have real slow kv for a very special use. By the way it could be useful to have a smooth panoramic device for my video camcoder. But sure it unappropriate for a generator.
I focus on the same BLDC as you shew on the picture. Further more it is cheaper than Robbe. I will probably order it together with the ESC.
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyThu Jan 16, 2014 7:37 am

there is something that seems to go wrong with my plans: OS engines had the rather strange idea for Japanese (American imperialism!) to have british dimensions. The shaft is therefore threaded as 1/4"-28 and not M5; it probably also has a 1/4" diameter and hence is not able to replace the BLDC shaft.
I will see what I do when I have both motors in hand.
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyThu Jan 16, 2014 12:59 pm

Saint-Oblas wrote:
The shaft is therefore threaded as 1/4"-28 and not M5; it probably also has a 1/4" diameter and hence is not able to replace the BLDC shaft.
It doesn't matter what size the crankshaft is or whether it is metric or imperial.

To make an adaptor (spigot) you can turn part of a length of hexagon bar to whatever diameter you want. Most BLDCs that we are interested in are 5mm daimeter shafts (although some useful ones are 4mm). Then drill and thread the other end to suit the crankshaft.

I'm not very good at using a lathe. There are many small engineering companies that will do this for you. It is very easy for someone with the skill.
   
Another possibility is to use threaded hexagon spacers or stand offs. Find some that are threaded 1/4"" and then screw in a cut down 1/4" bolt one end and turn that down to 5mm.  

Another possibility too, that I briefly tried and I think Brian as well with moderate success was bolting the rotor casing to the flywheel of the engine using spacers or a spacing block. You will need to shorten the BLDC motor shaft or push it through so it's flush with the end.
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyThu Jan 16, 2014 4:31 pm

Yes, I think I will be obliged to build something of that sort. What I expected was NO adaptater assuming (wrongly) that both shaft would be 5mm, I would have completely suppressed the BLDC one, pushing both rotor and stator on the engine shaft. But this is impossible due to different diameters.

An other point: I realised YOU built a Brissoneau et Lotz diesel locotractor! I saw you bought USAtrain boggies. Are you satisfied with them? What are the wheels diameter and the axles "empattement" (I do not know the english word). Do you prefer them to LGB?

There is a Brissoneau et Lotz VAR that ran on the CP Toulon-Saint-Raphaël, that is very attractive with enough room to put a diesel.
[img][url=https://servimg.com/view/18700975/1][img][url=https://servimg.com/view/18700975/1]

" />
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GWhizz

GWhizz

Location : Charente, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyThu Jan 16, 2014 8:42 pm

Carl Hibbs wrote:
Another possibility too, that I briefly tried and I think Brian as well with moderate success was bolting the rotor casing to the flywheel of the engine using spacers or a spacing block. You will need to shorten the BLDC motor shaft or push it through so it's flush with the end.

I wouldn't particularly recommend this route, as I have suffered my third fracture of the chassis due to vibration! My efforts at Live Diesel are very much on hold for the time being!

_________________
Brian
Brian
also blogging at
www.frenchgardenrailways.com
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http://www.frenchgardenrailways.com
Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyFri Jan 17, 2014 5:58 am

It is true that it is probably very difficult to equilibrate correctly such a mounting. This is why I prefered the possibility of having the BLDC motor (rotor and stator) on the engine shaft. Unfortunately the dimensions do not match. I have no possibility of having either stuff being re-engineered. It would be a very difficult operation: a crankshaft is a very delicate precision part; on the other hand, BLDC should be more confortable because of a reasonnable cost in case of a failure; the trouble being of finding ball bearings that suit the new shaft diameter and the stator case.

May be the pinnacle too for diesel electric lok would be a Wankel type engine with very reduced vibrations (but the price is very high and the noise less realistic than a four strokes)
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyFri Jan 17, 2014 9:37 am

I just received my second-hand OS FS 70 surpass. I cannot tell if it works yet, as it noy straight forward to try, as I have no compementary equipments.
It looks as a nice piece of machinery, though it is pretty dirty on the exaust side (leak on the muffler?). But something really puzzles me: IT IS HUGE! Probably better suited for a II gauge than a IIm! I will have a hard time packing it into a model body!
The shaft is huge too! I expected something like 1/4". In fact it is around 8mm! Definetaly impossible to get it through the BLDC motor!
The good thing is that it is overpowered and would gently idle along at low rpm with a nice noise.....if I can get it into a model.
I think I shouls have waited for a FS30 which is much smaller...
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyFri Jan 17, 2014 10:17 am

"empattement" in English is wheelbase.
The USA Trains bogies are fine except for the shiny plated wheels and traction tyres. I bought some replacement axles and replaced those with traction tyres.
The advantage is that they are about a third of the price of Aristocraft équivalents.

The Brissonneau VAR (2 of them) were sold to Spain and eventually scrapped. They are nice vehicles.
But they are quite low compared to a locomotive. I put a .12 (2.1cc) Thunder Tiger engine in which leaves plenty of space. Not sure if there is enough headroom for the OS. The drawings and dimensions can be found in numerous publications (Autorails de France, MTVS review). I have a copy if you want.

You will need to do some engineering or some creative thinking to get a BLDC motor to fit directly around the crankshaft of a large OS engine. There's no easy solution but I don't think it's impossible though.

This is one of the reasons that we have used a much smaller adaptable 2 stroke engine!

There is no real reason why engine manufacturers can't produce a small size low revving 4 stroke engine.
It's just that there isn't a (big) market for it.
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyFri Jan 17, 2014 11:46 am

Thank you for all those answers.

You are right for the small 4 strokes: people  are going bigger and bigger: some model are nearly not models any more (1/4 and even 1/3!). Smaller displacements (.20 and .26) have disapeared; some brands have even given up with .30.


Last edited by Saint-Oblas on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyFri Jan 17, 2014 12:04 pm

In the mean time, I have found those figures on internet:

AXLE TO AXLE 3 5/16
TIRE 1 1/8
FLANGE 1 3/8
BLOCK LENGTH 4 3/8
WIDTH 1 3/8
HEIGHT 1 9/16 

but I don't understand the difference between TIRE and FLANGE. For me tire is the rolling part, but flange? Is it the total diameter on the inside side?

Nevertheless axle to axle 3 5/16 should be 84,14 mm, that is very close to the prototype (1893mm instead of 2000). Tire diameter 1 1/8 is 28,575mm, close to the prototype (size of 643 instead of 700mm). Both reduction would probably help somewhat in short radius curves.

I presume the width is that of the block, not the distance between tire that should be 45mm.

Have you got the same mesures?
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyFri Jan 17, 2014 2:43 pm

Here I am again Carl. It appears that my engine will be too high for a Brissoneau VAR. If you have any plans with dimensions of the locotracteur, I would appreciate. I think I am going to order the BLDC (the same you have, the very flat one). I will see after how to handle it.
As for Brissoneau, there is also the Apocopa model. It should be somewhat higher; at least it looks so. Difficult to have real dimensions though.
Even if I have some problem using it, I like the four strokes OS: it looks real nice. Probably the FS30 would be the solution (the .20 and .26 where the same size; it is just bore and stroke which differ.
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyFri Jan 17, 2014 6:11 pm

The difference between tire (tyre in real English) which is actually the tread (tyre=pneu) unless you are building a real micheline  Wink .
This is the part of the wheel that is in horizontal contact with the track. In French bande de roulement ou bandage (the front of the tread).
The flange in French can be bride but on a train wheel I believe it is called boudin.
Laurent may be able to confirm or correct that.

The Apocopa model is no longer made. I'm not sure if he is actually making anymore IIm but his website does say a few items are available including la libellule corse (la bête de calvi).

There are dimensions of the Brissonneau locotracteur in the MTVS review no. 38
But here it is anyway.
Newbe on this forum Bl_loc10

The body is easy enough to construct (apart from the real louvres......) but the Brill bogies maybe difficult.

This body space is just tempting to fit a pair of small 2 stroke engines. And 2 strokes are indeed used in real locomotives....EMD 710 V12 et al.    Laughing
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Saint-Oblas

Saint-Oblas

Location : Lyon, France

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 9:34 am

I give some news of my project even if it is not very constructive to day. I have temporarily abandonned the idea of using my OS FS-70 keeping it for a bigger project (if possible). I just bought a smaller OS FS 26 which will suit better reasonnable size locs. I enquire about a feasable model.
As for french metric locs, I have bought but not receive yet some booklets you indicated: MTVS n° 38, 48 and 49. I would like to take a model with shapes not too difficult to copy, as I am not a modelist. I will probably simplify details somewhat in the LGB style.
I also saw on a parallel french forum a splendid model made by a catalan modelist on the Alsthom BB that run on many metric railways (Spain, Potugal, Grece, Vietnam, Madagascar, etc.). It has been made all in brass. I will not certainly reach such a degree of achievment, but as the modelist proposed me to send me the plan , it would be a possibility.

Newbe on this forum 08-08-10

As for "louvres", I saw some were proposed on a british site. I questionned them if they were real open louvres, but have no answer yet. In our case, itis not only an esthetic point: they are really useful for engine cooling. Many  many models have louvres; this is an advantage of the BB Alsthom: it has been made both with louvres and ordinary grid, version that I would favor of course!

There are very few Apocopa model available. The Brissonneau et Motz model is the earlier version that was in use in the 60's, not the later version with modified modern cabins.

Newbe on this forum Locomo11

The trouble is they just sell the body (and the windows glasses? I am not sure in this case). It is a pity they don't provide the bogies flanges, which are at least as difficult to build.
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Carl Hibbs
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Carl Hibbs

Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Newbe on this forum   Newbe on this forum EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 6:36 pm

This loco in blue, is that the Ahlstom?
What line does it run on and where was the picture taken?

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